HxC in Hitachi Seiko EDM

[saper_2]

Hello,

I have in company an EDM machine manufactured by Hitachi Seiko type H-CUT203M20 from 1993. Machine have 3 floppies on single 34pin cable, a floppy drive have 4 position switch to select DriveID. So I suspect this is a Shugart type interface (up to 4 drives). (Not to mention that ribbon connector is on opposite side of drive...). All floppy drives are that same type: NEC FD1137C from 1992.

I can put any new 3,5" HD floppy diskette in drive but I have to initialize the disk in machine to make it works. And obviously that floppy don't work with windows (Windows asks to format floppy...).

I tried many variations of interface+disk size/type, for most of all my attempts machine said: drive error OR disk error, there was one or two configurations that somewhat worked - HxC showed RA on display and hung-up (no response to buttons/card eject - complete freeze) with machine.
I don't remember now which one reacted (it was over week ago and I got sick ), but I am quite convinced it was with Generic Shugart interface and 3,5" 1.44MB DSHD FAT12.
Somewhat worked = in the moment that machine tried access to diskette (RA on display) then emu has hung up with machine....

I am attaching an empty initialized diskette dumped by HxC software.

I have also trouble of understanding the configuration dialog. I will write what I do:
1. Open/create diskette
2. Click on SD HxC settings,
2a. Uncheck AUTO in "HFE file interfacemode", select "Generic Shugart",
2b. Cklick save in "HFE file interface mode"
3. click "Save config file" ,and save the file....
4. Click OK (close SD HxC settings dialog)
5. Click Export and save floppy file
6. Copy floppy file and config file to SD card
7. Put SD card into HxC emu and select floppy file in HxC...
I'm not sure about steps around the SD HxC Config dialog - what I do is the right order? ...

Unfortunately I can not experiment with HxC on machine whenever I need to, I have to wait for moment when there is no job running on machine...

[Jeff]

Hello,

I have in company an EDM machine manufactured by Hitachi Seiko type H-CUT203M20 from 1993. Machine have 3 floppies on single 34pin cable, a floppy drive have 4 position switch to select DriveID. So I suspect this is a Shugart type interface (up to 4 drives). (Not to mention that ribbon connector is on opposite side of drive...). All floppy drives are that same type: NEC FD1137C from 1992.

I can put any new 3,5" HD floppy diskette in drive but I have to initialize the disk in machine to make it works. And obviously that floppy don't work with windows (Windows asks to format floppy...).

I tried many variations of interface+disk size/type, for most of all my attempts machine said: drive error OR disk error, there was one or two configurations that somewhat worked - HxC showed RA on display and hung-up (no response to buttons/card eject - complete freeze) with machine.
I don't remember now which one reacted (it was over week ago and I got sick ), but I am quite convinced it was with Generic Shugart interface and 3,5" 1.44MB DSHD FAT12.
Somewhat worked = in the moment that machine tried access to diskette (RA on display) then emu has hung up with machine....

I am attaching an empty initialized diskette dumped by HxC software.

I have also trouble of understanding the configuration dialog. I will write what I do:
1. Open/create diskette
2. Click on SD HxC settings,
2a. Uncheck AUTO in "HFE file interfacemode", select "Generic Shugart",
2b. Cklick save in "HFE file interface mode"
3. click "Save config file" ,and save the file....
4. Click OK (close SD HxC settings dialog)
5. Click Export and save floppy file
6. Copy floppy file and config file to SD card
7. Put SD card into HxC emu and select floppy file in HxC...
I'm not sure about steps around the SD HxC Config dialog - what I do is the right order? ...

Unfortunately I can not experiment with HxC on machine whenever I need to, I have to wait for moment when there is no job running on machine...

Some points :

1) The floppy dump is not ok : Probably because you are trying to read a disk that need to rotate at 360RPM to be correctly read in a PC. Possible solutions :
-Use the FD1137C on the PC to make the dump
or
-Send me the floppy disk. I have all the equipement to read any special disk format here.

2) About the Hitachi Seiko type H-CUT203M20 and the FD1137C : Can you check if this machine need an additonnal VFO circuit ? Have you some documentations about the floppy interface of this machine ?

3) "Somewhat worked = in the moment that machine tried access to diskette (RA on display) then emu has hung up with machine...."
Strange behavior... I will send you a new firmware & some images ready to be formatted. But before this, we need to have an answer about the previous point (2).

[saper_2]

I am sorry, for late answer I have been busy with other tasks...

1) The floppy dump is not ok : Probably because you are trying to read a disk that need to rotate at 360RPM to be correctly read in a PC. Possible solutions :
-Use the FD1137C on the PC to make the dump

Like I thought, it is not ok...
Unfortunately, the FD1137C are Shugart interface type. And after some experiments with one floppy that I have stashed in server room. I'm certain that those FD1137 spin at 360rpm...

-Send me the floppy disk. I have all the equipement to read any special disk format here.

Thank you for offer , but I have managed on my own
I have managed to dump image of floppy. Nevertheless I had to hack one of floppy drives that I have stashed in server room. Luckily, I found TEAC FD-235HF, and I hacked it (remove S4=0Ohm jumper, and short to GND the pad of opposite side to IDC header - according to this: http://www.retrotechnology.com/herbs_st ... ml#rotate2) which make this certain one FDD to spin at 360rpm . Below photos of unhacked and hack ed drive:

Teac FDD Label

teac-fdd-label.jpg (41.45 KiB) Viewed 21023 times

Unhacked Floppy drive

teac-fdd-1.jpg (119.83 KiB) Viewed 21023 times

Hacked floppy drive for 360rpm

teac-fdd-2-hacked360rpm.jpg (119.36 KiB) Viewed 21023 times

Next, I hooked this FDD to PC and then created images in HxC (sector has shown up ) and OmniFlopp (Detected FDD format ) .
OmniFlop detected that diskette is one of this two formats:
- Computer Automation LSI-2 (When reading disk OmniFlop shows: 77/2/26x256)
- NEC FC9801 (77/2/26x256)

This floppy have on track #0 26sectors x 128bytes and FM format, track 1 and next have MFM format 26sectors x 256bytes... (According to what I see in Visual Floppy disk from HxC software).

2) About the Hitachi Seiko type H-CUT203M20 and the FD1137C : Can you check if this machine need an additonnal VFO circuit ? Have you some documentations about the floppy interface of this machine ?

VFO - sorry, I do not know what this mean,
I have very thick binder with docs for this machine but there is nothing about floppy interface or anything that could be helpful. Like I described, there are 3 FDD drives on one ribbon, each one have 4 position switch to select DriveId...

3) "Somewhat worked = in the moment that machine tried access to diskette (RA on display) then emu has hung up with machine...."
Strange behavior... I will send you a new firmware & some images ready to be formatted. But before this, we need to have an answer about the previous point (2).

This might be a problem with file image/interface types... Anyway now it's working! I haven't installed HxC emu inside because of 1 major problem... The Ribbon cable location against other floppies :/ HxC have on the left side with IDC key downward, but floppies have ribbon at right side with IDC connector key upward...
Some photos:
Ribbon on floppies and position of HxC when it match with connector:

Position of HxC how should be installed:


As you can see, I don't have almost any space to manipulate with ribbon cable position ...

I'm going to see if flipping connector to opposite side of pcb would solve my problem, if not I have to build a simple adapter from goldpins and goldpin-plugs (I don't know how to call it...)

And this is how I tested :

Sorry for quality but my mobile phone camera is some time very stubborn...

I have another minor problem, but solving it would save my troubles of installation because I would got more space to manipulate with ribbon because 2nd drive would be out too. To the problem: I have configured HxC to emu 2 drives, Drive A is a System drive (ID=0) , and Drive B is a Data Drive (ID=1) but when we tried (me and person responsible for machine) download program (from PC computer via RS232) to 2nd emulated drive (Data Drive) machine thrown an error "OS2ER, FDD HARD ERROR 80 FF 00" - and this always happens when I have only one FDD on ribbon and emu is emulating 2 drives (doesn't matter which ones emulates: system+data or system+condition - condition is 3rd drive ID=3). I think this might be issue with logic levels (PIC in emu run on 3,3V but logic in machine is old 5V...) or emu is too fast or maybe have some lag when it comes to changing signals to drive B. Another thing that I noticed, and I got this idea of logic levels is: when I move around floppies with emu while system is being loaded, I have some errors with missing screens or something not enabled/not editable. (I can be at fault there because I move cables when it load system...)

But emu works pretty damm good with single drive emulation , so if you/somebody had some ideas about ribbon issue I'm open to listen

And of course I will post photos of working machine with emu once it will be installed permanently

[Jeff]

Thank you for offer , but I have managed on my own
I have managed to dump image of floppy. Nevertheless I had to hack one of floppy drives that I have stashed in server room. Luckily, I found TEAC FD-235HF, and I hacked it (remove S4=0Ohm jumper, and short to GND the pad of opposite side to IDC header - according to this: http://www.retrotechnology.com/herbs_st ... ml#rotate2) which make this certain one FDD to spin at 360rpm . Below photos of unhacked and hack ed drive:

Good !

Next, I hooked this FDD to PC and then created images in HxC (sector has shown up ) and OmniFlopp (Detected FDD format ) .
OmniFlop detected that diskette is one of this two formats:
- Computer Automation LSI-2 (When reading disk OmniFlop shows: 77/2/26x256)
- NEC FC9801 (77/2/26x256)

I am interested by some of your HFE files. can you send me some of them ?

2) About the Hitachi Seiko type H-CUT203M20 and the FD1137C : Can you check if this machine need an additonnal VFO circuit ? Have you some documentations about the floppy interface of this machine ?

VFO - sorry, I do not know what this mean,

VFO : Variable Frequency oscillator. This circuit is used to sync the floppy controller to the incoming floppy disk data.
In most system (>95% of them) this one is on the system motherboard, but some old japanese systems include it into the drive (NEC drives most of time).
But since you managed to get the HxC working on your machine for sure the VFO is in the FDC.

This might be a problem with file image/interface types... Anyway now it's working! I haven't installed HxC emu inside because of 1 major problem... The Ribbon cable location against other floppies :/ HxC have on the left side with IDC key downward, but floppies have ribbon at right side with IDC connector key upward...

Yes, in this case you need to replace the floppy cable.

I have another minor problem, but solving it would save my troubles of installation because I would got more space to manipulate with ribbon because 2nd drive would be out too. To the problem: I have configured HxC to emu 2 drives, Drive A is a System drive (ID=0) , and Drive B is a Data Drive (ID=1) but when we tried (me and person responsible for machine) download program (from PC computer via RS232) to 2nd emulated drive (Data Drive) machine thrown an error "OS2ER, FDD HARD ERROR 80 FF 00" - and this always happens when I have only one FDD on ribbon and emu is emulating 2 drives (doesn't matter which ones emulates: system+data or system+condition - condition is 3rd drive ID=3). I think this might be issue with logic levels (PIC in emu run on 3,3V but logic in machine is old 5V...)

No, The uC is working at 5V as the floppy interface.
There is a new firmware that solve and improve some points. I can provide you a beta version it if you want.

But emu works pretty damm good with single drive emulation , so if you/somebody had some ideas about ribbon issue I'm open to listen

Why no just replace it by a longer one ?

And of course I will post photos of working machine with emu once it will be installed permanently

And a video ?

[saper_2]

Next, I hooked this FDD to PC and then created images in HxC (sector has shown up ) and OmniFlopp (Detected FDD format ) .
OmniFlop detected that diskette is one of this two formats:
- Computer Automation LSI-2 (When reading disk OmniFlop shows: 77/2/26x256)
- NEC FC9801 (77/2/26x256)

I am interested by some of your HFE files. can you send me some of them ?

No problem , your mail is: hxc2001 [monkey ] hxc2001 [point] com ?

VFO : Variable Frequency oscillator. This circuit is used to sync the floppy controller to the incoming floppy disk data.
In most system (>95% of them) this one is on the system motherboard, but some old japanese systems include it into the drive (NEC drives most of time).
But since you managed to get the HxC working on your machine for sure the VFO is in the FDC.

Hmmm, memorized

This might be a problem with file image/interface types... Anyway now it's working! I haven't installed HxC emu inside because of 1 major problem... The Ribbon cable location against other floppies :/ HxC have on the left side with IDC key downward, but floppies have ribbon at right side with IDC connector key upward...

Yes, in this case you need to replace the floppy cable.

:wall: I didn't think of it... I will see what I can buy (Ribbon cable + connectors)

I have another minor problem, but solving it would save my troubles of installation because I would got more space to manipulate with ribbon because 2nd drive would be out too. To the problem: I have configured HxC to emu 2 drives, Drive A is a System drive (ID=0) , and Drive B is a Data Drive (ID=1) but when we tried (me and person responsible for machine) download program (from PC computer via RS232) to 2nd emulated drive (Data Drive) machine thrown an error "OS2ER, FDD HARD ERROR 80 FF 00" - and this always happens when I have only one FDD on ribbon and emu is emulating 2 drives (doesn't matter which ones emulates: system+data or system+condition - condition is 3rd drive ID=3). I think this might be issue with logic levels (PIC in emu run on 3,3V but logic in machine is old 5V...)

No, The uC is working at 5V as the floppy interface.
There is a new firmware that solve and improve some points. I can provide you a beta version it if you want.

Maybe when replacing ribbon won't work... For now I would like to stay on "Release channel"

But emu works pretty damm good with single drive emulation , so if you/somebody had some ideas about ribbon issue I'm open to listen

Why no just replace it by a longer one ?

Yep, to not think that, I'm stupid man

And of course I will post photos of working machine with emu once it will be installed permanently

And a video ?

Hmmmm, I'm not a Spielberg ;P , I will think about it when I install emu permanently.

[Jeff]

I am interested by some of your HFE files. can you send me some of them ?

No problem , your mail is: hxc2001 [monkey ] hxc2001 [point] com ?

Yes

[saper_2]

Hi,

It took a lot of time to install emu (machine busy, I had problems with my hand...) anyway, works in 80% :/ - I think the problem lies in floppy diskette image, because on one image (STARTUPA.hxc) operator can edit program, but can't download from PC, on another image operator (dump-system-hackedFDD.hxc) can download program but then can't edit program, and I get error in other menu entries, or when downloading: OS2ER, FDD HARD ERROR 80 FF 00 ... I'll try to make some more images of floppy, maybe on different PC.

Here some photos :
Ribbon:


Installed:


And I have problem with trying to load fw update, I wanted to test those that you sent me but emu don't want to find them
I have tried with two SD cards: 256MB and 4GB both clean formatted (not quick format) in FAT32 and emu always blinks to me 4 times

[Jeff]

Hi,

It took a lot of time to install emu (machine busy, I had problems with my hand...) anyway, works in 80% :/ - I think the problem lies in floppy diskette image, because on one image (STARTUPA.hxc) operator can edit program, but can't download from PC, on another image operator (dump-system-hackedFDD.hxc) can download program but then can't edit program, and I get error in other menu entries, or when downloading: OS2ER, FDD HARD ERROR 80 FF 00 ... I'll try to make some more images of floppy, maybe on different PC.

Without the images i cannot tell but is probably just an interface setting problem. With the last firmware you can force the interface mode through the emulator to ignore the one selected into the HFE. This is in the embbed menu (remove the sd and press select -> interface cfg)

And I have problem with trying to load fw update, I wanted to test those that you sent me but emu don't want to find them
I have tried with two SD cards: 256MB and 4GB both clean formatted (not quick format) in FAT32 and emu always blinks to me 4 times

take this one instead :
https://hxc2001.com/download/floppy_driv ... rmware.zip

[Geniusltd]

I am sorry, for late answer I have been busy with other tasks...

1) The floppy dump is not ok : Probably because you are trying to read a disk that need to rotate at 360RPM to be correctly read in a PC. Possible solutions :
-Use the FD1137C on the PC to make the dump

Like I thought, it is not ok...
Unfortunately, the FD1137C are Shugart interface type. And after some experiments with one floppy that I have stashed in server room. I'm certain that those FD1137 spin at 360rpm...

-Send me the floppy disk. I have all the equipement to read any special disk format here.

Thank you for offer , but I have managed on my own
I have managed to dump image of floppy. Nevertheless I had to hack one of floppy drives that I have stashed in server room. Luckily, I found TEAC FD-235HF, and I hacked it (remove S4=0Ohm jumper, and short to GND the pad of opposite side to IDC header - according to this: http://www.retrotechnology.com/herbs_st ... ml#rotate2) which make this certain one FDD to spin at 360rpm . Below photos of unhacked and hack ed drive:
teac-fdd-label.jpg
teac-fdd-1.jpg
teac-fdd-2-hacked360rpm.jpg

Next, I hooked this FDD to PC and then created images in HxC (sector has shown up ) and OmniFlopp (Detected FDD format ) .
OmniFlop detected that diskette is one of this two formats:
- Computer Automation LSI-2 (When reading disk OmniFlop shows: 77/2/26x256)
- NEC FC9801 (77/2/26x256)

This floppy have on track #0 26sectors x 128bytes and FM format, track 1 and next have MFM format 26sectors x 256bytes... (According to what I see in Visual Floppy disk from HxC software).

2) About the Hitachi Seiko type H-CUT203M20 and the FD1137C : Can you check if this machine need an additonnal VFO circuit ? Have you some documentations about the floppy interface of this machine ?

VFO - sorry, I do not know what this mean,
I have very thick binder with docs for this machine but there is nothing about floppy interface or anything that could be helpful. Like I described, there are 3 FDD drives on one ribbon, each one have 4 position switch to select DriveId...

3) "Somewhat worked = in the moment that machine tried access to diskette (RA on display) then emu has hung up with machine...."
Strange behavior... I will send you a new firmware & some images ready to be formatted. But before this, we need to have an answer about the previous point (2).

This might be a problem with file image/interface types... Anyway now it's working! I haven't installed HxC emu inside because of 1 major problem... The Ribbon cable location against other floppies :/ HxC have on the left side with IDC key downward, but floppies have ribbon at right side with IDC connector key upward...
Some photos:
Ribbon on floppies and position of HxC when it match with connector:

Position of HxC how should be installed:


As you can see, I don't have almost any space to manipulate with ribbon cable position ...

I'm going to see if flipping connector to opposite side of pcb would solve my problem, if not I have to build a simple adapter from goldpins and goldpin-plugs (I don't know how to call it...)

And this is how I tested :

Sorry for quality but my mobile phone camera is some time very stubborn...

I have another minor problem, but solving it would save my troubles of installation because I would got more space to manipulate with ribbon because 2nd drive would be out too. To the problem: I have configured HxC to emu 2 drives, Drive A is a System drive (ID=0) , and Drive B is a Data Drive (ID=1) but when we tried (me and person responsible for machine) download program (from PC computer via RS232) to 2nd emulated drive (Data Drive) machine thrown an error "OS2ER, FDD HARD ERROR 80 FF 00" - and this always happens when I have only one FDD on ribbon and emu is emulating 2 drives (doesn't matter which ones emulates: system+data or system+condition - condition is 3rd drive ID=3). I think this might be issue with logic levels (PIC in emu run on 3,3V but logic in machine is old 5V...) or emu is too fast or maybe have some lag when it comes to changing signals to drive B. Another thing that I noticed, and I got this idea of logic levels is: when I move around floppies with emu while system is being loaded, I have some errors with missing screens or something not enabled/not editable. (I can be at fault there because I move cables when it load system...)

But emu works pretty damm good with single drive emulation , so if you/somebody had some ideas about ribbon issue I'm open to listen

And of course I will post photos of working machine with emu once it will be installed permanently

Hello.
Found exactly the same fdd. I removed the resistor and soldered the jumper. OmniFlopp appears as drive "A" unregistered. HxC does not see each other at all and does not address fdd error. It spins up the floppy disk but does not try to read it. no initialization drive
Tell me what the problem is, you can change the BIOS settings, you may need drivers for the fdd. which version of windows to use? tried windows7 and XP x86. Help me please.

What am I doing wrong? Thank you.